Lolis Elie, a food writer and critic who wrote the barbecue road trip book Smokestack Lightning, joins David Chang on his podcast for a wide-ranging conversation on food and identity, only a short portion of which discusses barbecue. It’s a good conversation between Chang (who is really coming into his own as a podcaster) and the ever-thoughtful Elie.

People have subjective definitions when it comes to quality, and food is no exception. To compare one genre of food to another often requires nuance and context, making the whole endeavor that much more difficult. Dave speaks to writer and food critic Lolis Elie about how to evaluate food with care and respect.